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'Lingam tagged along with me'
©The
Star (Used by permission)
by Chelsea L.Y. Ng, Cecil Fung and Manjit Kaur
• I always entertain such requests, says former Chief
Justice
• Brother wants to testify
• Spoofs on video clip on YouTube
• Placard response to Dr M
• ‘Interesting’ day on fifth day of inquiry
• Lingam was advised against framing photo
KUALA LUMPUR: Former top judge Tun Eusoff Chin said he was “not extremely close”
to Datuk V.K. Lingam but yet admitted that he allowed the lawyer to “tag along”
for a holiday to New Zealand.
However, a photograph showing the two together with their spouses was produced before the Royal Commission of Inquiry. The picture showed Eusoff’s left hand over Lingam’s shoulder.
Other highlights of the former top judge's testimony were:
• He “bumped into” Lingam on the way to New Zealand.
• He shared a van with Lingam during the Kiwi trip and they split the
fare.
• He did not discount the possibility of Lingam “stalking” him by getting
hold of his travel itinerary.
• He first got to know Lingam around 1990, when the lawyer handled a case
in his court in Kuala Lumpur.
• He could not positively identify the man in the clip but thought he
spoke and sounded like Lingam.
The Commission gave Eusoff time to engage counsel and will hear other witnesses
when the hearing continues on Monday.
I always entertain such requests, says former Chief Justice
KUALA LUMPUR: Tun Eusoff Chin said it was normal for lawyers to want to be photographed with him when he was the Chief Justice.
He said he always entertained such requests by senior lawyers as well as students whom he met on his overseas trips.
According to a 2000 news article tendered yesterday, the former Chief Justice had also reportedly said: “When the man puts his hand on your shoulder, you can't simply shove it aside.”
At the start of his testimony, Eusoff, 73, told the court interpreter that he was a “pensioner.”
DPP Datuk Nordin Hassan: Tun, you were the Chief Justice of Malaysia from September 1994 to December 2000?
Eusoff: Correct.
Nordin: Do you know a lawyer by the name of Datuk V.K. Lingam?
Eusoff: I know him.
Nordin: Since when?
Eusoff: Exactly when I don't know. Around 1990.
Nordin: Please explain how you got to know him.
Eusoff: At that time, I was a judge in Kuala Lumpur. He handled a case in my court.
Nordin: Would you say you were close friends?
Eusoff: We were ordinary acquaintances. It's a matter of degree.
Nordin: What about Tan Sri Vincent Tan?
Eusoff: I don't know him, although I have met him at gatherings, Hari Raya, ordinary functions. Somebody introduced lah, this is Vincent Tan.
Nordin: Have you seen a video clip that featured a person said to be a lawyer brokering the appointment of judges?
Eusoff: Yes, the ACA (Anti–Corruption Agency) showed me.
Nordin: Can you identify the man in the video clip?
Eusoff: At that time, no. It was not very clear.
The 14–minute video clip was then shown in open court for the fourth time since the hearing started on Monday.
Nordin: Can you identify the Indian man having the phone conversation?
Eusoff: I can't. It's not clear.
Nordin: What about the way he spoke and his voice?
Eusoff: Sounds like Datuk Lingam.
Nordin then read a portion of the video clip's transcript relating to the appointment of judges.
Nordin: Have you ever discussed with Lingam the appointment of five judges?
Eusoff: No.
Nordin: Did you send a memo to the PM?
Eusoff: No. When was this recording made?
Nordin: Dec 20, 2001.
Eusoff: I'm out dah. No longer CJ (Chief Justice).
Nordin: After your retirement, have you sent any memo to the PM on the appointment of judges?
Eusoff: No.
Nordin then read the portion of the transcript about the problems faced by Eusoff when he was in office.
Nordin: Are these allegations against you true?
Eusoff: I don't understand what he was referring to.
Nordin: So you don't understand the meaning?
Eusoff: No. He said “problem.” What “problem”?
Nordin reads the following portion of the transcript:
“One day, I went to Vincent Tan’s house, I fired him at night in the house. I said bloody hell if you don’t do this, who will do it? All these people, Tun Eusoff Chin, Datuk Ahmad Fairuz, Tan Sri Zainon all fought for us.”
Eusoff: I don’t know what he was talking about. Apa benda (what was that)?
Nordin reads the following portion of the transcript:
“No. don’t worry the... the... Datuk, I know how much you suffered for Tun Eusoff Chin... and Tun said Datuk Ahmad Fairuz... hundred and ten percent loyalty.”
Eusoff: I don’t understand what it means.
Nordin reads the following portion of the transcript:
“Chinese Man: Who is that?
Indian Man: Dato Ahmad Fairuz.
Chinese Man: Oh Ahmad Fairuz.
Indian Man: I put him up there. You don't tell this to anybody please. I cannot tell this to Manjit.
Chinese Man: Ah.
Indian Man: And he is Acting President Court of Appeal number two post. He is next Chief Justice. He always says I leave it to you.
Chinese Man: I thought you were very close to Tun Eusoff Chin... Dato?
Indian Man: He's Eusoff Chin's man. Eusoff Chin he's already retired. But... Dzaiddin hates Eusoff Chin, you understand?”
Nordin: Do you understand the statement? Is the statement about Tun Ahmad Fairuz being your man true?
Eusoff: Not true. I don't understand.
Commissioner Datuk Mahadev Shankar: Not true or don't understand?
Eusoff: Firstly, I don't understand what he's referring to.
Nordin: You understand the part that went “Dzaiddin hates Eusoff Chin?” Do you know if this is true?
Eusoff: Never.
Nordin reads the following portion of the transcript:
“Eusoff Chin in power, I can straight get Pom, Pom, Pom, Pom. But now Dzaiddin is there and ... Dzaiddin is attacking our cases, that is why James Kumar is aligned to Dzaiddin. But Dzaiddin retiring 15th of September. He's finished.”
Nordin: Is it true you're extremely close to Datuk V.K. Lingam?
Eusoff: Not extremely close.
Nordin: Do you understand the part about “Eusoff Chin, I can straight get Pom, Pom, Pom, Pom?”
Eusoff: (laughs) I don't know.
Nordin: Were you involved in the appointment of Tun Ahmad Fairuz as President of the Court of Appeal and as the Chief Justice?
Eusoff: No.
Nordin: Have you ever met Datuk V.K. Lingam to discuss Tun Ahmad Fairuz's appointment as President of the Court of Appeal and Chief Justice?
Eusoff: Never.
Nordin: Have you ever discussed with Tengku Adnan (Tengku Mansor) or Tan Sri Vincent Tan on Tun Ahmad Fairuz's appointment as President of the Court of Appeal and as Chief Justice?
Eusoff: No.
Ranjit Singh (counsel for the Malaysian Bar): Was your relationship with Datuk V.K. Lingam anything other than that of a lawyer–judge relationship when you were a judge and Chief Justice?
Eusoff: It was a normal lawyer–judge relationship. Nothing more.
Ranjit Singh then tendered a newspaper article with the headline “Eusoff: I paid for my own holidays overseas.”
Ranjit Singh reads the article:
“Asked about the photo, Eusoff said it was taken after he coincidentally met Lingam while on holiday there. 'I bumped into him (Lingam) there. As a Malaysian in a foreign country, I was happy to see a fellow countryman. I told him I was going to the zoo and he asked if he could tag along. I told him I was taking a bus there and he said he did not mind, so he came along. He also wanted to take pictures with me and I obliged,' he said. He said the photo was a 'posed picture', adding: 'When the man puts his hand on your shoulder, you can't simply shove it aside.
Ranjit Singh: Did you make these statements?
Eusoff: I gave some press statements but I can't remember. I bumped into him after breakfast. In fact, I met him earlier in Singapore.
Ranjit Singh: You went to New Zealand on holiday with your family? Can you tell us exactly who went with you?
Eusoff: My wife (Toh Puan) Rosaini (Mustaffa) and my children Zubaidah and Johan.
Ranjit Singh: You first bumped into Datuk V.K. Lingam in Singapore in respect of your New Zealand holiday. Was anybody with him?
Eusoff: I can't remember. He must have been with his family.
Ranjit Singh: I'm told with his wife and two children? You know he has a wife and two children?
Eusoff: Yes.
Ranjit Singh: Where in Singapore did you bump into him?
Eusoff: At the airport.
Ranjit Singh: You then flew to New Zealand from Singapore?
Eusoff: Auckland, I think.
Ranjit Singh then produces a copy of a Holiday Tours travel itinerary detailing Eusoff's holiday in New Zealand in December 1994.
When the lawyer asked the former Chief Justice to confirm that this was indeed his itinerary, he replied: “I can't remember. This came from the tour agent.”
Ranjit Singh: Also stated in this itinerary are the names Rohani and Jeyanthi. Do you know who these people are?
Eusoff: Rohani was my secretary (then). I do not know who Jeyanthi is.
Ranjit: Tun, you said you bumped into him in Singapore and you flew to Auckland via NZ28 J at 17.55hrs. You flew on business class?
Eusoff: I cannot recall. What it (referring to Eusoff’s itinerary for the December 1994 trip) says is there.
Ranjit: You flew with Datuk V.K. Lingam from Singapore to Auckland on that flight on Dec 22?
Eusoff: Yes.
Ranjit: Then there is a next flight from Auckland to Christchurch NZ1541 on Dec 26 J class, 15.15hrs. Did you take this flight?
Eusoff: Yes.
Ranjit: Did you fly together with Datuk Lingam and his family?
Eusoff: Yes.
Ranjit: You will note that you landed in Auckland on Dec 22 or 23 and left Christchurch on Dec 26. You have two to three days there. Did you and your family spend the three days in Auckland with Datuk Lingam and his family?
Eusoff: The thing is, he wanted to tag on and asked, “Can I come along?”, that sort of thing.
Ranjit: You stayed in the same hotel as Datuk Lingam?
Eusoff: In Auckland, there is only one good hotel.
Ranjit: Which hotel is that?
Eusoff: I can’t remember.
Ranjit: And Datuk Lingam stayed in the same hotel?
Eusoff: Can’t remember.
Ranjit: Did Datuk Lingam tag along for the entire trip in Auckland?
Eusoff: Yes.
Ranjit: Did Tun take an extra trip out of this itinerary?
Eusoff: This is what was given. What actually took place there, I can’t remember.
Ranjit: On Dec 30, 7am, business class, did your family fly to Auckland from Christchurch with Datuk Lingam and his family?
Eusoff: Yes, I think so.
Ranjit: Auckland to Singapore flight NZ73, Dec 30, business class, 9.55am. Do you recall taking this flight back?
Eusoff: Yes.
Ranjit: Did Datuk Lingam and his family fly back on this flight too?
Eusoff: Maybe. Yes.
Ranjit: Do you recall flying back to Singapore with Datuk Lingam and his family?
Eusoff: Yes.
Ranjit: Singapore–KL flight MH616, Dec 30, first class. Did you take this flight with your family?
Eusoff: Yes.
Ranjit: Do you recall whether Datuk Lingam and his family took the same flight?
Eusoff: Can’t remember.
Ranjit: From KL to Singapore via flight MH 611, that was the start of the trip when you allegedly bumped into Datuk Lingam and his family?
Eusoff: No.
Ranjit: Sure?
Eusoff: Because when we boarded, I didn’t see them.
Ranjit: All the flights taken by you and your family and that of Datuk Lingam and his family appeared to match. Even the hotel you stayed in Auckland. You stayed about three to four days in Christchurch. After that was there another flight?
Eusoff: I can’t remember.
Ranjit: He was stalking you throughout? He got hold of your itinerary without your knowledge so that he can be close to you?
Eusoff: Maybe. I can’t say what he’s thinking. I went to New Zealand because (retired Federal Court judge Tan Sri) Edgar Joseph (Jr) told me to go to New Zealand. It’s a nice place to go and see. I told my secretary to get a tour agent to plan for a week or so. How he wants to tag along and follow my itinerary I can’t control.
Ranjit: Christchurch to Queenstown in the South Island of New Zealand. That’s a place famous for its bungee jumping. I am told. Discovery (Channel)! How did Tun travel from Christchurch to Queenstown? Was it by car, road, and not a flight?
Eusoff: Yes, I took a van. One New Zealander drove the van. Datuk V.K. lingam and his family went along. He wanted to pay half of the costs.
Ranjit: You bumped into him accidentally. He followed you everywhere and wanted to share a van to Queenstown. In Malaysia, you were a judge and him, a lawyer. Wouldn’t Tun say “This is enough. I would not share a van with you. There must be a limit.” Why did you allow him to follow you to Queenstown.
Eusoff: You see, the van can accommodate nine people.
Ranjit: Was there a person by the name of Tan Chong Paw in the van?
Eusoff: I cannot remember.
Ranjit: When you went to Queenstown, do you remember, where you stayed?
Eusoff: Cannot remember.
Ranjit: How did you travel from Queenstown back to Christchurch?
Eusoff: I flew back with my family together with Datuk V.K. Lingam and his family.
Ranjit: He followed you again?
Eusoff: Yeah, he followed.
Ranjit: Can you explain how Datuk Lingam managed to book the same flights as yours to travel from Queenstown back to Christchurch?
Eusoff: He went to an agent there and booked the tickets. I said I have to go back and do my work. He wanted to book the tickets. I can’t stop him.
(Looking at Ranjit) You also can come if you went there. I can’t stop you.
Ranjit: I will never travel with Tun Eusoff Chin.
Eusoff: You are not out to hammer me, I hope.
Ranjit: We are not hammering you. We are here in this Royal Commission of Inquiry to establish the truth!
At this juncture, Commissioner Datuk Mahadev Shankar said, “Ranjit, please leave out your comments.”
Ranjit: How many photographs were taken between the bus and zoo events?
Eusoff: The pictures were taken for the family album. If he wants to take, what can I do? Everybody – lawyers, students – wants to take photo with me. What can I do? I can’t stop them.
There were times when Lingam insisted on taking photographs with me.
Ranjit: How many photographs?
Eusoff: I brought a camera, he also brought a camera. I can’t remember how many photographs altogether. We just see and snap, snap.
Ranjit: If one bumps into somebody else accidentally, like Datuk Lingam and Tun, one will assume that after one or two photos, Datuk Lingam would have moved on with his own itinerary? How many photos were taken?
Eusoff: A few. We don’t count.
Ranjit: Approximately?
Eusoff: Can’t remember.
Ranjit: One or two, five to 10, 31 or 32, 46, 47?
Eusoff: Five to 10.
Ranjit: Sure?
Eusoff: About that.
Ranjit (Taking out a big envelope and pulling out a big stack of photographs): Tun, I’m going to show you a series of photographs. (Refers to a photograph showing Eusoff and his wife posing with Lingam and his wife in holiday attire, in front of a building with the words ‘Skyline Gondola’ written on it.) Are you able to identify from left to right the people in the photograph?
Eusoff: My wife, myself, Datuk V.K. Lingam and his wife.
Ranjit: The building behind you? It reads Skyline Gondola?
At this juncture, leading officer DPP Datuk Nordin Hassan objected to the line of questioning saying that it had gone outside the ambit of the terms of reference of the inquiry.
Mahadev: But the Commission of Inquiry is very much open, isn’t it?
Nordin: Not on closeness per se. It shouldn’t be addressed.
Mahadev: One of the terms of reference is to determine whether a misconduct had been committed by the person or persons identified or mentioned in the video clip.
Tan Sri Haidar Mohd Noor: Is it necessary to ask these questions?
M. Puravalen (Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim’s lawyer): Whenever somebody said the scope of this inquiry is limited to misbehaviour in relation to the appointment of judges, where is it stated that it is limited to this? How did this limitation creep into this inquiry?
Haidar: The questions should be confined to the terms of reference of this inquiry.
Puravalen: Can we have a ruling on this?
Mahadev: No such ruling is to be made. Let Ranjit ask his questions first.
Haidar: The DPP is trying to say whether Ranjit should continue. Let Ranjit respond first.
Tan Sri Steve Shim: At this stage of questioning, certain things have been brought about. I’m not sure whether Tun (Eusoff) wants to say something. I notice he is not represented. Maybe we need to ask if he needs time to get legal representation in these proceedings.
Eusoff: Initially, I trust the wisdom of the member (of the Commission) to look into what is admissible or inadmissible.
Haidar: Maybe Tun would want to consider getting legal representation to guide the commission.
Eusoff: Give me some time. All these (evidence adduced so far) are irrelevant. Initially, I did not take counsel because we have five wise people up there. I think I need to get a counsel now.
Haidar: Today is Friday, we need to go off early. We propose that there be no sitting in the afternoon. We will adjourn to Monday.
Eusoff: I cannot appoint a counsel during the weekend. In the weekend, lawyers will not be in the office.
Haidar: Then we proceed with other witnesses on Monday. We will let you know, Tun, the next day for your testimony.
Brother wants to testify
KUALA LUMPUR: Datuk V.K. Lingam's brother is serious about testifying before the
Royal Commission of Inquiry about the close relationship the lawyer had with
former Chief Justice Tun Eusoff Chin.
Counsel Wee Choo Keong yesterday made a formal application for V. Thirunama
Karasu, who offered himself as a witness for the inquiry.
This was done shortly before Eusoff took the witness stand.
Commission chairman Tan Sri Haidar Mohd Noor asked Wee if his client had given
his statement to the Anti–Corruption Agency, to which the lawyer replied that he
had done so in November last year.
DPP Datuk Nordin Hassan, however, pointed out that the statement Thirunama
Karasu given was not pertaining to the video clip investigation.
“It pertains to allegations of corruption,” he said.
Wee, however, argued that what his client wanted to testify on was relevant.
He said his client would provide full details of several events which include
Lingam’s holiday to New Zealand with Eusoff in December 1994 and a dinner party
Lingam threw for Eusoff and former President of the Court of Appeal Tan Sri
Lamin Yunus in 1995.
Wee also presented the commission with an 8R–size photograph showing Eusoff,
Lingam and their spouses in New Zealand.
(This photograph was later produced again by Ranjit Singh, counsel for Malaysian
Bar, during Eusoff’s testimony).
Initially, Haidar was apprehensive about viewing the picture but Wee insisted
that the commissioners had a look at it as it “shows closeness.”
Commissioner Datuk Mahadev Shankar, however, pointed out that Wee’s application
might be premature as Eusoff was about to testify.
“If he (Eusoff) denies the close relationship, then your client’s evidence will
be material,” he said, suggesting Eusoff be allowed to testify first before
deciding on the application.
When Wee insisted his application be recorded, commissioner Tan Sri Steve Shim
said: “We’ve taken note of what you’ve submitted and we'll decide later.”
Spoofs on video clip on YouTube
PETALING JAYA: Spoofs of the controversial V.K. Lingam's video clip have been found circulating on the Internet.
Two of these videos on YouTube were made by bloggers known as Pazuzu and Hanief.
Hanief's video is based on popular American–based rap–rock band Linkin Park. It features snippets of Lingam's alleged conversation fused with rap music and renamed Lingam Park.
The spoof done by Pazuzu is a comical take on the entire conversation, done with his trademark Adobe Flash stickmen.
These videos can be viewed at Pazuzu's thefloatingturd.com and Hanief's hanief.blogspot.com or at www.youtube.com.
Placard response to Dr M
KUALA LUMPUR: Outside the lobby of the Jalan Duta court complex seven members of the Malaysian Youth Secretariat held a mini protest for about 20 minutes from 10.30am, ridiculing the answers given by former prime minister Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad on Thursday.
They held placards with slogans like “Mahathir Muda Lupa” (Mahathir easily forgets) and a caricature of him drawn by the side.
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Its spokesman Yunus Ali said that in most instances during the inquiry Dr Mahathir had replied that he could not remember or was not aware of the situation and denied any acquaintance with Lingam when he was in power.
“This is a clear indication that he has forgotten his past actions during his tenure as the prime minister.
“And Dr Mahathir had once said that Malays are forgetful. Actually he is the one who has proven to be most forgetful,'' he added.
Yunus said that Dr Mahathir's family and Lingam had known each other for some time as Lingam had represented the former prime minister's eldest son Mirzan Mahathir in connection with his libel suit against printer Star Papyrus Printing Sdn Bhd in 1999.
‘Interesting’ day on fifth day of inquiry
KUALA LUMPUR: Those who attended the fifth day of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into the V.K. Lingam video clip were all smiles when they left the courtroom after former Chief Justice Tun Eusoff Chin testified yesterday.
The quiet corridor outside the courtroom on Level Three of the Jalan Duta court complex came “alive” at about 11.50am, with reporters rushing out to get more information from lawyers.
“Interesting” was the word said by many while some had broad smiles while exchanging notes of the proceedings.
Soon after, the attention was focused on V. Thirunama Karasu, the estranged brother of Datuk V.K. Lingam, and his counsel Wee Choo Keong, who was seen showing a photograph, the moment captured by hordes of press photographs.
Later, Wee told reporters that the photograph was that of Lingam, Eusoff and their spouses taken in New Zealand in 1994.
As early as 7am, people were already queuing outside the courtroom to obtain passes to follow the proceedings.
It was at about 9am when those with passes were allowed in, and half an hour later, Eusoff arrived in a maroon Perdana at the basement back door of the court complex.
Eusoff finished testifying at 11.50am and left through the witness’s exit.
Lingam was advised against framing photo
KUALA LUMPUR: V. Thirunama Karasu claimed he had advised his estranged brother Datuk V.K. Lingam against framing a photograph taken in New Zealand featuring former Chief Justice Tun Eusoff Chin.
Thirunama claimed his brother had shown him some photographs soon after the trip in 1994 and had asked him to choose a nice photo that he could frame up.
“I told him he was crazy to do that, as people would see it. It was only then that he realised it would not be wise to do that,'' he claimed yesterday.
Earlier Thirunama had told reporters outside the courtroom that he knew about the New Zealand trip on which his brother and Eusoff had gone.
Counsel Wee Choo Keong said the panel was finding excuses. “By right the commission must hear him first as he can show Lingam's close links with judges and Eusoff.
“Thirunama had driven Lingam to Eusoff's house at night to deliver bags and other things,'' Wee claimed.