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©New Sunday Times (Used by permission)
by Aniza Damis

THE occasion of conversion seems like the perfect opportunity for the crossing of cultural and religious divides and for strengthening ties, in spite of differences. However, in Malaysia, some conversions only cause grief and discord, especially when the family is not informed of a person’s conversion. Aniza Damis speaks to Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department Datuk Ahmad Zahid Hamidi, a self-confessed non-ulama from a line of ulama in the family (though not lacking in religious education, he points out) on what the government is doing to bring harmony to such a thorny issue

Q: A few weeks ago, the prime minister said he wanted converts to Islam to inform their families first. Last week, you had an Islamic and civil law co-ordination conference to discuss the issue. How did that meeting go?

A: I'd like to clarify this: What the PM told us was "to inform their family". It doesn't mean they have to inform their family first before they convert.

"Inform" means they can inform after the conversion takes place.

So, we are formulating now how that information will be presented to the family.

Q: What are you considering?

A: Firstly, all converts have to register with the state religious department. That is the law that is being gazetted.

Q: And what if he doesn't register?

A: He has to register.

Q: What if he converts, does not register, then dies. Does he count as a Muslim or not?

A: We do not know. That's why the problem arises.

Q: So, he has to register?

A: Yes. And a card (of conversion) will be given to him. The card is an evidence of the conversion.

The second thing we are considering is whether the convert has a will. We are working with Amanah Raya Bhd for the will to be registered with the company.

This is so that, if there is any dispute over the will, three things will automatically be considered: First of all, on the harta sepencarian (property commonly acquired) of the convert and his or her civil law spouse; the will will show that the harta sepencarian is for the previous (non-Muslim civil law) family.

Secondly, if that person doesn't have a family, then the convert's property will be distributed according to Islamic procedure.

Thirdly, if there are children in the civil law marriage, regardless of whether it is the husband or the wife who converts, the responsibility still falls on the father. This means financial and emotional maintenance -- whatever that is needed in taking care of the children.

And fourthly, if the convert has parents, what are his responsibility to his parents? This responsibility of taking care of the parent does not break or end after a conversion. Converts to Islam should not cut off their relationship with their parents. Their responsibility to take care of their parents is still there.

Q: So, if he dies without a will...?

A: The conversion card is there as evidence.

Q: The card tells you that he is Muslim. But what if he leaves behind non-Muslim relatives, including his mother and father, and children. But he has no will. What happens?

A: No will is no will. But the evidence shows that this person is a Muslim.

Q: What happens to his property?

A: The non-Muslim family can always go to the civil court.

Q: Does that mean that his non-Muslim family has a right to that property?

A: Yes. The family can ask the civil court to decide.

Q: Civil court? It will not go to Syariah court?

A: Civil court. They can challenge through the civil court.

Q: What if he has a non-Muslim family and a Muslim family?

A: In that case, we have the faraid system, the distribution of property through the Syariah court. And failing which, the non-Muslim family can ask the civil court to decide on the distribution of property of the deceased.

Q: But if it's faraid, it will go to Syariah court. Non-Muslims don't have locus standi in the Syariah court. So, what happens?

A: The Syariah court says that the faraid goes to the stipulated next of kin. That is very clear.

Q: Does that count as Muslim or non-Muslim?

A: The Muslim first. Then, if he has non-Muslim family members, they can ask the civil court to decide.

Q: But the civil court can't decide what is in the Syariah court's jurisdiction.

A: Yes. Syariah only takes care of the Muslim. The civil court takes care of the non-Muslim. So, to deal with these dual-family issue, we are now planning to have an advisory council.

Q: What kind of advisory council, and for what purpose?

A: It is at the district and state level. The advisory council is basically a council where the Syariah lawyer and the civil lawyer will sit together, without taking the case to open court.

These issues will be resolved within that advisory council.

Q: Does this mean that there will be a stage where you've got a merger of both systems without either being Syariah or civil?

A: It's not formally merged. It's just an understanding. The council will look at what needs to be done for the next-of-kin.

Q: What if the non-Muslim family seeks help in the civil court, and the Muslim family goes to the Syariah court? What happens if the courts make different findings for the different families. What happens then?

A: This is what we discussed in the meeting. The council is not about a merging of the two court systems, but about working together. To understand each other, and to determine the role of each court. We have decided that the advisory council be set up to resolve the problems outside of court, and within the council.

Q: What are the things that they are going to look at?

A: Disputes. In terms of property distribution, responsibility of the non-Muslim next-of-kin -- all this is to be advised by the council. For instance, the balance of the property will be not only to take care of the Muslim family members, but also to take care of the non-Muslim family members. Like the parents, or even siblings.

Q: When you talk about balance of property, what do you mean?

A: When you talk about syariah, we have a faraid system. For instance, the daughter is given a percentage, the son is given a percentage. But, I believe not the whole property should be distributed to only the Muslim children of the deceased, when the deceased also has non-Muslim children. The court must also take care of this, because justice in Islam means that the deceased's property must be distributed to the non-Muslim children as well.

Q: Are you coming up with a specific system? If the non-Muslim family does not come under faraid, and if the convert decides to will one-third of his property to the non-Muslim family, the fact of the matter is that the Muslim heirs can refuse for that one-third to be given to the non-Muslim family. How would you deal with that problem?

A: Yes. That is why the council is set up, to formulate the distribution. The formula is not set yet. We are still discussing.

Q: Who is in this committee that is discussing this?

A: Among them are the state Legal Advisers for the civil side, and officers and judges from the Syariah court for the Syariah side.

Q: Do you have any non-Muslim parties in this committee?

A: Not yet.

Q: Do you intend to?

A: Later on, yes.

Q: Later on. When?

A: We are still formulating.

Q: Some non-Muslim religious groups say some of the things that need to be determined at the time of the conversion is how divorce (between the newly-converted spouse and the now left-behind non-Muslim spouse) is to be dealt with, property, inheritance, alimony, and so on. Are you looking at these issues?

A: Yes, and we are also working with the ministry of unity on this. That ministry is taking care of other religions, and we are working with them.

Q: Why is it that the committee said that the converts don't have to tell?

A: They don't have to tell first.

Q: What happens if that person's life is cut short before he's had a chance to tell his family?

A: There is the card (showing proof of conversion).

Q: But in the cases where there have been quarrels (between the non-Muslim family and the Muslim authorities), there usually already is some sort of paper evidence. But the family says they don't believe. How do we deal with it?

A: If there is a card, then it's a lucky thing. But in some cases, there isn't. That's why we need to standardise this. There must be a card.

Q: But the problem, for instance, with Everest climber M. Moorthy was, even though there was a card, the family was not informed. So, what happens if the same thing happens again? Isn't the whole idea to avoid even the briefest of conflicts with family?

A: That is what we need to standardise first. We have not formulated the matter yet. We are discussing it. What is important here is the harmony between Muslims and non-Muslims. The harmony approach has to be discussed with non-Muslims as well.

The important thing is not to create differences, but to find a point of meeting. This thing won't be solved by itself. We must do something.

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