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©Bernama (Used by permission)
by Azman Ujang
KUALA LUMPUR (Sept 10, 2008) : Malaysia's most prominent anti-corruption and
good governance activist, Tunku Abdul Aziz Tunku Ibrahim, raised many eyebrows
recently when he announced his new role as a politician by joining the
opposition Democratic Action Party (DAP).
And in an unprecedented move, the DAP instantly appointed him a vice-chairman.
DAP founder and now advisor Lim Kit Siang in welcoming Tunku Aziz to the party
said: "For more than a decade, he has been an icon of integrity and transparency
from the sidelines. His joining DAP is a boost in our efforts for a more
broad-based and representative party."
In a wide-ranging interview with Azman Ujang of Bernama, Tunku Aziz echoed Lim's
sentiment, saying that being in the party's policy-making body now would enable
him to make the DAP a more Malaysian organisation so that it was not seen as
just a "Chinese party in disguise".
"If you want to be a Malaysian party, let's be a truly Malaysian party in our
outlook, sentiment, loyalty and our patriotism. I don't believe that communal
parties really have a future in Malaysia," he said.
Tunku Aziz, 74, had a distinguished career in the corporate sector before being
actively involved in Transparency International, the global coalition against
corruption.
He has written and spoken widely on corruption and integrity issues both
domestically and internationally and published his book, "Fighting Corruption:
My Mission".
He also served at the World Bank and in 2006 was invited to establish the United
Nations Ethics Office as a Special Advisor to then secretary-general Kofi Annan.
In the interview, Tunku Aziz spoke of his zest to continue speaking out against
corruption, saying: "There is nothing more important for a country and its
systems and institutions than to be seen to be practising good governance".
And he warned: "We have seen many countries fall or destroyed by corruption.
Corruption will dismantle us, in fact corruption has dismantled many empires.
The fall of empires of the past was due to corruption".
Tunku Aziz spoke of Singapore's successful war against corruption and the
lessons other countries can learn from the island nation.
He said that in Singapore's case, it was the will of one man, Lee Kuan Yew, the
former prime minister and now Minister Mentor, against corruption.
"Before Lee Kuan Yew, Singapore was a very corrupt society but he was able to
turn it around and make it into an island of integrity.
"He may not win prizes for human rights but if there were a world prize just for
fighting corruption, Lee Kuan Yew is the clear winner," Tunku Aziz said.
He said it was all about leadership by example because people down the line took
the cue from their elected leaders.
"That's what one man has been able to do. We have not been able to do it here in
Malaysia because we set our sights far too low. We should be setting our sights
high in the fight against corruption," he said.
Following are Q & A excerpts of the interview:
Q: Many are surprised that the Tunku Aziz that they know to be someone who is
apolitical, who speaks out without fear or favour especially against corruption
and for good governance, has decided to be actively involved in politics and to
have joined the DAP.
A: No one seemed to be taking all those issues that I have been talking about
all these years seriously. Those were very important issues, issues of the day.
And I've noticed that over time instead of the political situation in the
country getting better, it in fact has got worse from my perspective ... and so
I decided that I would have to take a more active political interest because
I've always believed that the future of this country really depends very much on
how we deal with outstanding issues and there are many outstanding issues.
It's all very well to talk about national unity but let's scratch the surface a
little and you would find that there are very serious undercurrents of
suspicion, discontent, of a sense of being marginalised or excluded, and these
are important issues. I've always believed ever, since I was at school, on the
need for a united country. Of course I grew up when we were Malaya, but it's
always been the same. To me the most important thing is loyalty to our country.
That is my No. 1 priority. It doesn't matter what organisation I belong to, that
does not change. I do not support anything which is extra-constitutional because
the foundation of our country and our society is really the Constitution. So
from that point of view, those things are important.
Q: Now, why did you choose to join the DAP?
A: I joined the DAP because I've been watching DAP for more than 20 years. I was
highly suspicious of DAP because it seemed to me to be nothing more than an
alternative Chinese party, it was chauvinistic. But over time I've also seen
that this party has remained steadfast to some of the values that I share, such
as the need to fight corruption comprehensively, which has been my life-time
concern, and also of course with fighting corruption we are obviously also
fighting for transparency, accountability, and I've been not just advocating but
encouraging companies and people to practise good governance.
And DAP is opening up. The fact that it remains a largely Chinese party, I
think, is not their fault. It's because Malays and other people have not joined
the party. They have opened it up, they have declared themselves to be a party
for all Malaysians. It meets my own requirement in terms of the need for
Malaysia to be a multi-racial country because we cannot really expect this
country to progress divided, we have to unite. But unity can come about only if
we develop and adopt policies which are inclusive. The fact that you are not a
member of the ruling party does not make you any less credible as a person
because I think everyone should be involved in the running of this country.
It doesn't matter what your political affiliations are as these affiliations
merely demonstrate an important facet of the democratic system, which is that
there is the freedom to be different, to espouse dissenting views. And I hope
that the ruling party will accommodate all views provided they are constructive
views and they are views that will not hurt the country.
I'm against any politician who, at the slightest hint of any problem in our
country, rushes out to the outside world to compare this country with Zimbabwe,
for example, and to regard this government as if it has no legitimacy. I think
that is wrong. The fact that I belong to a political party does not mean that
I've surrendered my own personal independence. There are views which I've held
since I could remember and these views are important ....
Q: What are your views on race relations in the country now?
A: As a Malay, naturally I would like to see the Malays being treated as the
Constitution intended them to be treated. But I also recognise the fact that we
cannot exclude the rights of other races. While we want to protect the rights of
the Malays as provided for under the Constitution, we must also ensure that the
rights of the non-Malays are also protected. And that really has been the real
reason for accelerating my move into the political arena. But having said that
I'm not a political animal. And I'm not a politician as such. I'm an advocate
and activist for a clean (government) and transparency, accountability and for
integrity in government.
I would like to see whichever party gets into power, I would like to see that
party behave in an ethical way in the management of the country's affairs
because people must not forget that what may look as well within the law or as
legal may not necessarily be ethical and that is an important issue. It's a real
dilemma for someone to say that I'm going to give up my independence which I've
cherished and valued for years ... which enabled me to speak without fear or
favour. But now the same message which I've been putting out will be looked at
in a totally different light, but you know Tunku Aziz the person is still the
same man, he hasn't changed and to me it's like saying now that you have gone
into the political arena and therefore you are different. I'm not different, I'm
the same person still believing in all those things which I've been promoting.
Q: If you could put a time-frame to it, at which period of time could you say
you began to make up your mind to enter active politics?
A: The final decision was taken probably about a year ago. That was the time I
decided that you have been making speeches all over the country to all the
organisations which are prepared to hear you ... But then I've seen that to me
how the country is perceived is terribly important because I've been in
Transparency International and I've seen how perceptions could make or break a
country. And for the world to perceive our country as being in a state of
constant turmoil, now that cannot be good. And therefore I think all politicians
of all shades and colours must ensure that they must protect the good name of
Malaysia.
Q: You spoke earlier about certain things in the country that have not only
not improved but have gone from bad to worse. Can you cite some examples?
A: While we have achieved a great deal in terms of development, the question
I've always asked myself is at what cost. Let's talk about unethical public
behaviour, which seems to be getting worse. We've just been reading about more
cases of corruption and a flurry of arrests by the Anti-Corruption Agency (ACA).
These are things that you and I have known happen all the while but this merely
confirms what we already know. But there is so much rhetoric ... there is no
government in the world that has not come into power with this flag-waving "we
will fight corruption and so on and so forth". It is not just in Malaysia but I
was hoping that we in Malaysia would be different, but I've not seen that
happening.
Q: Back to corruption, are you encouraged by the ongoing flurry of arrests by
the ACA?
A: It is very encouraging because, for years and years, some of us have been
saying that the ACA should be made into an independent commission. The ACA has
repeatedly said that it was independent. But again, we knew they were not. It is
up to the ACA now to tell the government this is the form we want the new
Anti-Corruption Commission to take. The government should be listening to the
people (on) what kind of ACA we want in Malaysia.
But what I really would like to see is the ACA being given the power, if they
have not got it already, to go out to anyone who is suspected of being involved
in corrupt practices or anyone who evidently is living beyond his means and say
Sir or Madam ... how do you account for this, put the onus on that person. But
this has not happened.
I tell you if they were only to do this, as Hong Kong is doing or has done, they
would have a lot more success. So there is a lot of foot-dragging. I am
convinced the ACA, if you want it to be based on the Hong Kong model which is
really the benchmark, I think it should have many of the positive aspects of the
Hong Kong set-up, and one of them is the power to go to anyone in the land,
whoever, put the onus on them to please account for their assets and wealth. I
think that is one thing that would ensure that people will really be frightened
to commit corruption.
Q: You are now not only a member of the DAP. Instantly you have been made one
of the five vice-chairmen. Did it come as a surprise to you that you
straightaway became a vice-chairman?
A: Yes, it did. Because, when I wanted to join the DAP, my intention was simply
to join as a member, not to hold any high position, so it did come as a surprise
but at the same time I feel that they put me into the policy-making body. I
think that would enable me to influence the way DAP develops in terms of the
things I've been speaking about but also more particularly to make them become a
more Malaysian organisation so that they are not seen as just a Chinese party in
disguise or chauvinistic. In fact they must be more Malaysian than Malaysian.
If we are talking about a united, strong, cohesive nation. I think we've had 51
years of that to really create the sort of country that the founding fathers had
intended it to be. Whether it was Datuk Onn Jaafar, Tunku Abdul Rahman, Tun
Abdul Razak, Tun Hussein Onn, that vision which really was the factor that made
all these people sacrifice so much. Tun Dr Ismail, for example, and Tun Razak
both were unwell ... they could have just spent time with their families but
they didn't. Why? Because their vision was for a strong Malaysia, for a Malaysia
that is respected internationally. I've always used the phrase ... Malaysia to
be at the top of the table and not be picking up scraps from the floor. We
should be there, we have the capacity to be there. I think we can really develop
a strong nation. So we have to come up with ideas, policies which will be seen
to be compatible with the aspirations of the people. This is essential.
Q: Everybody says that this country is highly politicised. In your view,
where do we draw a line that things should not be politicised to the detriment
of society?
A: The first thing is for the government to realise that they cannot on their
own achieve very much. I think public support is important. Public trust is
important, public confidence is important and these attributes can only come
about if the government is seen to be practising good governance, to use an
all-inclusive term. That its policies are far-sighted, its policies are fair,
and there is equity, there is justice, and so therefore it has to ensure that
the institutions of government which have been set up as part of our
constitutional development must be treated as sacrosanct. You do not trifle with
these institutions, you do not compromise the integrity of these institutions so
that people would have confidence in our legal system, our judiciary, our
criminal justice system, in the police, in the Immigration, and all the other
public services.
But if they do not have the confidence, they will not blow the whistle, they
will not go the ACA, they will not go to the police even if they see a crime
being committed because rightly or wrongly they assume that by going to these
agencies they themselves might become victims of official abuse. It is a sad
commentary of the state of affairs that after 51 years of independence, which
means that after 51 years of being able to decide our own destiny, is this what
we have achieved? So, this is sad. What you have done now is you have linked
politics to loyalty, to patriotism. Sense of patriotism. We must delink politics
and loyalty because we know that in politics there is no such thing as loyalty.
For example, we are now talking about people crossing over to other parties, or
a change of government and this shows there's no loyalty.
Q: In Malaysia, we use this phrase "money politics or politik wang". Do you
regard this as very much a misnomer in the fight against corruption and doesn't
reflect the actual situation where people bribe to get votes?
A. You are right. This is a total misnomer. It is corruption, it is bribery.
But, as you know, sometimes corruption doesn't have to involve money changing
hands. If you abuse the system when you have the power, that is corruption. But
in this case it is just plain simple bribery. And to call it money politics is
actually insulting corruption.
Q: To balance things up, giving credit where it's due, what are some of the
country's achievements over the last 51 years of independence?
A: Well, it would not be fair to merely highlight what we see as the negatives.
There are definitely lots of positives as well. The country today has achieved
development status which many countries are still dreaming about, are envious
of. I've been asked by the University of Malaya's Institute of Policy Studies to
give lectures to people from other countries like Sri Lanka, Afghanistan, the
Sudan and India, Nepal and I sometimes have a quiet cry. When they say what a
wonderful country Malaysia is, the things that they could only dream about and
they always ask you what do you do to achieve this ... so successive governments
must have done something right. You cannot just criticise them. But of course
what we are talking about is how much better we could all have been. We could
have been a truly great and united country if only we had paid more attention to
the concerns of our people of all races in a fairer and more just way. That is
what this nation should be all about and that's what our religion is all about.
It doesn't preach unfairness, it doesn't preach corruption.
Q: It does seem our ulama (religious scholars) being influential people for
the Muslims, for example, are giving views or preaching on all subjects under
the sun but are quite weak or not very forthcoming in giving views on the evils
of corruption by way of helping the war against corruption?
A: There is no doubt that our Islamic religious leaders wield considerable
influence on social issues and corruption is a social disease. And I think they
should be more outspoken and they provide the guidelines, they should condemn
corruption. But you are right, so little has come out from our religious
institutions on this very important issue because we have seen countries fall or
destroyed by corruption.
The fear of God's retribution against people who commit corruption should be
instilled in all our people because many of the people who have the power today
are Muslims and when you have power you should use it well in accordance with
your religious teachings and beliefs and your own values or you can abuse it.
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