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what a heart-breaking news

Chew Pong Him

What's new?!

Raymond Yap Soon Hock

More Fear....

R. Thanasegar A/R Ramasamy

Expected decision!

Think twice before convert.

Islamic law is very clear, may go in but difficult to come out!

Lim Sey Wee

We need to see the grounds of judgement before commenting. Just curious to read Richard Malanjun's decision.

Ravindra P. Nanukuttan

A very clear construction of our Federal Constitution.

Noor Nirman Hizwar Bin Hussein

Alas, notwithstanding the Decision..

There is now, more than ever, a growing and urgent need for non-muslims and muslims alike to educate ourselves on Islam, the origins of Malaysian law and Islamic law, while questioning...

What Do We Really Know About Islam?
(A hint for the next Siri Pemikiran Kritis)

Recommended readings: Writings by the late Tan Sri Professor Ahmad Ibrahim, Professor Aziz Bari's book on Islam & the Malaysian Constitution, Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qardawi and Sheikh Yusuf Hamzah Hanson of the USA among others.

Justin Johari Bin Azman

It's a sad day and dissapointing one too............ lots to think about now!!!!

Shamala A/p Puvananthiran

It is like the Final of the Champion's League between AC Milan v Liverpool. The score is 2-1 to AC Milan. It was a very tense match so also is the decision of Lina Joy. Lina's appeal was dismissed with cost. Indeed a sad day for freedom of religion and Art 11 of the Constitution. Fortunately or unfortunately, there are another three different set of cases to go. All of different facts involving Hindu women where their husbands (whether dead or alive) converted and it involve Children.

Damian Yeo Shen Li

Praise be to Allah!

Justice have been done, and seen done!

Indeed Islam is very clear on this. Islam is not only a law, but it is a way of life. It is not a shopping centre that you can go in and out as you wish.

Don't think before you enbrace Islam, but "Believe" to be Muslim!

[MBW: This member did not sign his/her name below his/her comment, and I am not able to identify the member. Nevertheless, I am making an exception in publishing the above comment. Members please note unless you put your full name below your posting, it may not be published if we are not able to identify you.]

What do you expect? Nothing will ever change in this country unless we change the government. With the 40% of non-malays and at least 10-15% of liberal malays could do something come election but of course nothing will ever change although I remain hopeful.

Siti Zabedah Kasim

"Islamic law is very clear, may go in but difficult to come out!" Lim Sey Wee.

Yes. That's when you think the religion is like a cloth. You can change it anytime and get a new one. But I don't blame you Lim. Your ignorance is understandable. It's not your responsibility either. But those in power and the authorities must come out with something concrete rather than ad-hoc decision. This case is crucial not only to the non-Muslims but the Muslims as well.

Nadzri bin Abdul Majid

That case had finally been decided, although personally feeling sad about such an expected outcome, the existence of the dissenting judgment is the only consolation;

Those who believe in the fundamental liberties & freedom as conferred by the Constitution should keep up with the faith, because further attempts will be made in the upcoming days and this will not be the end of the efforts.

Shim Wai Loon

Yes, in our country ,there is no way for malay to convert. but how about for other race, especially the non-muslim father in divorce case who has converted into muslim, just to prevent the custody of his children being granted to the mother?

Any remedy for the mother or the child?

Chew Pong Him

Yup, expected. Just waiting to read the grounds of the decision of the FEDERAL court.

Any consideration given to the human factor and the Consequences?????

Oops correction Appeal dismissed with no order as to cost. It was my mistake to say "Appeal dismiss with cost."

Damian Yeo Shen Li

Our world is beginning to separate into two where the simplistic mind of the ordinary peiople on the street will not stop to wonder why the muslim judges are taking one stand and non-muslim judges are taking the other in the Court of Appeal and Federal Court level.

It will be inevitable that one day the Civil court will be subject to the Syariah Court although don't know when.

This is the position that most local Islamic scholars preach and which most muslim adhere to.

I respect that but are we living in two separate world now?

Tan Chun Ming

Judging from who is sitting there, this is an expected decision.

Hence, issues relalting to Islam remain sensitive in this country;

But what have been decided in relaltion to the jurisdiction point which is of paramount to the muslim and non-Muslim.

Wilson Leong Hong Kae

Ultimately, freedom of religion is not about laws. If God will not force a man to believe in God, how can man force man to believe in God?

Wong Yong Fei

As mentioned many times before, Islam is a way of life and not just law and order but a way of life. A very respectful way of living a life is to live by principles. You cannot be changing your principles so easily just to accommodate the popular view of way of life. There must be a very concrete reason why you want to change the way you live your life. And that concrete reason must also be supported by another reason. That is how it goes in upholding justice, we all, as legal practitioners, know it well.

It is not fair to judge a principle based on what you see rather than what you should know. It is not fair to criticize before you actually made an effort to dig for the knowledge that you need to know before you make your criticism.

I would like to urge my learned friends to read the judgment before putting down your criticism here. Although I am of the opinion that if you have lost faith in Islam then you should not be a Muslim anymore, but I do believe that you should also respect the sensitivity of the other group of people. Converting is not like changing clothes, but it adhere closely to your life, it means your dignity, your value and your faith, and as much I want to respect other religions, I do wish that they do the same thing too.


Bona fide,

Dara Waheda Mohd Rufin

I expected the decision, especially considering the composition of the panel Judges. I hope that Tun Fairus was not curtailed by the fear of the threat of the Muslim extremists and fanatics who have threatened unrest, war and bloodshed if the decision was in favour of Azalina Jailani. ( Lina Joy no more!)

Perhaps I shouldn't be emotional.

But indeed, it is very frightening, to read, that some members of the Bar are saying things like that the Constitution has spoken etc. Lim Sey Wei has also been accused of being ignorant. I think such comments do not auger well to make others more understanding of our religion. It frightens not just the non Muslims but the Muslims as well.

But it is true, religion is not a piece of cloth that one can wear and shed as and when one pleases. It is more of commitment and understanding. Even when we wear a cloth, we should be able to choose the colour, type and material of our cloth.

So can a person be born into the religion and not be able to get out of it at all? Can a newly converted father convert his 3 year old son to Islam? What does the son know and understand of Islam? And if the father converts out, (hmmmmm... not possible anymore), does it leave the child remaining as a Muslim? How can he convert out?

Seems that Islam is now all about force and threat now... which it is not at all..... we must get to the root of the problem. We must not let others feel that they have to think twice about converting to Islam. Let Islam be a religion of peace.

Perhaps what Azalina can do to resolve her issue is to migrate to neighbouring Singapore, Thailand and even Indonesia where she can select any religion and marry any man of any race.

Nik Elin Nik Abd Rashid

When I read and reread my above post, I hope people dont misconstrue that I am chasing Lina away. I never meant "You dont like, you can always leave Malaysia." I was simply comparing how much easier it is to get out of Islam in other countries although they are a majority Muslim population.

I am sure that they will argue that Thailand and Singapore is a Buddhist Country, ok, now compare with other Arabic countries with a majority Muslim population that doesnt punish apostates but live together side by side.

Another point is that, do we really want a population of almost all Muslims but most are actually forced into the religion? Are we looking for quantity rather than quality Muslims?

So what now after this for Azalina? Will the religious extremists now ask that Azalina be beheaded for choosing to be a Christian instead? I wouldnt be surprised. It is after all an islamic country...

Nik Elin Nik Abd Rashid

My sentiments exactly, Nik, after reading some of the disturbing comments posted. Such sentiments are clearly going to make non-Muslims even more apprehensive of their Muslim brethren. I'm just curious about Dara Waheeda's view that converting is not just like changing clothes - why is it that it appears (to me at least) that when someone converts to Islam, no one says anything about it's wrong to "change clothes", but if you want to come out of it, then it's deemed such?

Jaspal Singh Gill

The decision was expected. Wake Up, look around, we are in Malaysia. One more reason to make sure our children grow up with strong religious and cultural values.

Pushpaleela a/p R Selvarajah

The High Court Judge had said that there is no Constitutional right to convert out of Islam in Malaysia. In that sense, the Federal Court's implicit recognition that such a right exists is instructive.

Be that as it may, yesterday's decision was not "a rejection of an attempt by a certain individuals and segments to deconstruct and radically revamp of the current formula" as PEMBELA would have us believe.

It is instead a victory to those who are upsetting the Constitutional balance by turning around what was promised to be a secular nation by our founders into a theocratic State.

Malaysia will become a Taliban State in 20 years unless right thinking people from all religions prevent the systematic destruction of our Constitutional system of secular parliamentery democracy.

(By secular, I do not mean anti God. I mean that religion is meant to be personal and not interfere with the business of government. See Haris Ibrahim's Islam-as-I-say_tion)

Nik, I think people like Lina Joy have no choice but to leave the country. I advise most of my clients in similar situations as such.

(In most cases, these are not people leaving Islam. They are people who say they were never Muslim at all because they were raised in another religion by their parents or relatives, since one parent was forced to convert in name to Islam to marry the other parent.)

Those silly people, however, want to stay in their tanahair, their tanah tumpahnya darahku. What to do?

Di Malaysia Nampaknya Kadang-kadang Tak Boleh Juga Ya!

K. Shanmuga

Hi all,

Continuing from my previous posting, these are the topics / issues I propose for the next Siri Pemikiran Kritis:-

1. A Commentary on the Lina Joy case

2. The Origins of Malaysian Law & the Role of Islam

3. The Administration of Islamic Law in Malaysia: With Special Reference to the works of the late Professor Ahmad Ibrahim

4. Article 11 and the Spirit of the Federal Constitution

5. Islam 101: What Do We Really Know About Islam?

6. Usul al-Fiqh Made Easy (Islamic Jurisprudence)

7. The Shariah Courts: A Second Class Court?

8. The Social Contract: After 50 years of Independence

9. Islam in the Federal Constitution

Speakers include: Prof. Aziz Bari, Prof. Shad Faruqi, Assoc. Prof. Farid Sufian, Prof Hisham Kamali, Mr Kevin Khoo, Mr Mohamed Ismail M. Shariff, Mr Hisham A Bahrin among others.

Of course, this is just a proposal. I would be delighted to hear your feedback and suggestions.

Best Regards

Justin Johari Bin Azman

Can one expect anything when the Federal Court has a confederate of dunces as its majority?

Fahri Azzat

Justin,

Thank you for the suggestions. This will be looked into.

For the moment, SPK 2 has already been cast in stone and is scheduled to proceed next month. The central theme is not so much about religion but rather re-thinking malaysia in light of its 50th birthday.

The topics covered would include corruption and accountability in local councils, freedom of media and civil cociety, whether malaysia is a developed/developing nation and aspirations of today's youths.

The new SPK 2 starts on June 13, followed by Hune 20, June 27 and July 3. Look out for the email blasts and other publicity materials coming your way soon.

Perhaps, in the coming months, we can model SPK 3 based on what you have suggested.

Thank you.
Dipendra A/L Harshad Rai
Deputy Chair
National Young Lawyers Committee 2007/2008

I'm curious, any avenue for Lina Joy now? As declared by the highest court in the land, she MUST go to the syariah court for a declaration. I wonder will she get it? I doubt it. Why? She may face the possibility of rehabilitation for at least 100 days or more subject to her cooperativeness in a god-forsaken place. Will that be, not only an infringe of her right in believing in a God, her right of association and her freedom. To the Muslim lawyers/judges tell me and convince me that I may understand.

Damian Yeo Shen Li

I really want to ask each and everyone of you, Muslim and Non-Muslim, (since most, if not all of us here have read law), Do you put your self-proclaimed Religion First (i.e Islam, Taoism, Christianity etc.) or Justice First? knowing full well that in deciding a matter in the name of Justice, you yourself have to contradict your own religious belief, will you still proceed to make such a decision if it is required of you?

Darren Teo Sze Hoong

Come to think of it, the majority seems to be espousing the political causes of UMNO. As the majority group, any attempt to weaken a Malay’s religious faith is perceived as an indirect attempt to erode Malay power. This is because conversion out of Islam would mean deserting the Malay community and the Malay would lose his special privileges (Art 160(2)). Therefore, it would be unthinkable for UMNO if Malay Muslims enjoy unobstructed religious freedom like the non-Malays.

What do you think?

Wong Yong Fei

Can I please know if anyone of you thinks it is just that in order for a person to change his religion, he must endure the loss of his liberty, be subject to incarceration and re-education for possibly up to 2 years, all without any assurance whatsoever that if he suffers these things to be done to him and survives with his desire intact, he will be permitted to change his religion? Anyone?

Andrew Khoo Chin Hock

I hope the judges who delivered the decision for this case and the others, for the other cases relating to conversion will reflect, ponder and consider carefully on the implications of their decisions. Good decisions are decisions that are fair, free from their own personal religious convictions, just and not those that only show the judges' talents (or lack of it) in legal language gymnastics .


Right now, I am more worried about Lina Joy's safety. I hope she is no longer in Malaysia. Who knows what the religious zealots are capable of.

Noreen Ahmad Ariff

As a matter of fact (de facto) Lina is a Christian even though as a matter of the present law (de jure) she is a Muslim. Why must the law be made against the actual fact?

Justice should be delivered in a neutral and secular manner. Lina's citizen right and liberty to choose her faith should be paramount . Afterall it is her relationship with Whom she has placed her faith.

History reveals that tribulations will only strenghten one's faith rather than taking it away. Thus a de jure victory may not be a de facto victory!

Loh Wann Yuan

I fear for the future of Malaysia. "Democracy" in this country seems to exclude the elements of protection of the minority's rights as enshrined in the constitution. It seems to me that as long as the "majority" control all the insitutions of govt, judiciary and parliament, they can get away with anything and there is nothing the minority can do except protest... am I too pessimistic or can someone please encourage me otherwise?

Chew Phye Aun