Stephen Tan Ban Cheng
User
Gold Forumer
| Posts: 585 |  |
|
Re:MADPET: Police attacks on peaceful protesters must end - 2006/05/31 18:08
Shan
We Malaysians have been "conditioned" to the requirement of a police permit for a public meeting in a public place. We are still in the 19th century.
The rights discourse occurred way back during the Renaissance, but then the British colonialists never told us Malaysians about this, did they?
Now, in the year 2006, we know better. We know about the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights on Dec. 10, 1948, a time when we were still a colony. We know about the Malaysian constitutional provisions on the right to peaceful assembly.
We know about democracy and we know that it has this distinct difference from feudalism.
Even then, since we are "conditioned" as such, even lawyers argue about the requirement of a licence, forgetting all the while about human rights as a whole and the inalienable right of people to assemble.
Here, I am tempted to take the "alternative" that history always has to offer.
What would have happened if the police on duty on Sunday, equipped with their anti-riot gear and all the shields and water canons - paid for by all we tax-payers - if they had allowed the assembly to continue.
N O T H I N G ! They would have probably gone home after that. I do not believe that the average citizen on Sunday, all unarmed, would want to cari pasal (find trouble) with the riot police. I do not think any one of them would want to cari sakit (find harm).
From the reports, there were no signs that the assembly was turning into a riot. The assembly was proceeding smoothly. It was rattled when the police tried to break it up.
The assembly was dispersing. But then, the command was given to chargein into the crowd. Then, all hell broke loose.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I am not cari gaduh (finding a quarrel). Just let me know if my take on the incident is objective or not.
Do remember that in such an incident, there will always be two views. The demonstrators talk about the police charge. The police talk about self-defence.
It is for the average Malaysians to judge which one view is more correct.
|
|
|
| | The administrator has disabled public write access. |
Lawrence Teh
User
Fresh Forumer
| Posts: 13 |  |
|
Re:MADPET: Police attacks on peaceful protesters must end - 2006/06/01 08:46
In 1986, I opportuned to visit Seoul, S Korea. The tour guide did not have much to show the small Malaysians only group. After the palace and the war muzuem, we went up a tower so as to observe with a bird's eye view of the city.
At 9 AM, looking down from the tower, I saw RIOT police in practice drill and marching in squads of 3 by 10 men.
Even then, there had been daily reports of riots amongst industrial workers, mostly! Till currently, and of late, news have been flashed about dissatisfied street rioting against certain motoring industries in S Korea.
I do not wish Malaysia to be like that!
Sorry, Steven, I am not with you. If you said that last Sunday's demonstration would have ended peacefully, and that the FRU need not have broken up the 'show', I do not agree!
Api kecil kawan, api besar lawan! That is what is going to happen. Now only 500. Tne next demo would be 5,000. And then what?
Forum and election is the desired and most civil method for change, if you wish to run a country!
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
I oppose any form of demonstration including calling lawyers to march to Parliament (as in the last AGM) - proposal from the floor - and I oppose lawyers street marching as in last year's Manila incident.
It is never an enviable task to uphold THE RULE OF LAW.
|
|
|
| | The administrator has disabled public write access. |
Charles Hector
User
Junior Forumer
| Posts: 160 | |
|
Re:MADPET: Police attacks on peaceful protesters must end - 2006/06/01 11:05
One must never forget that the freedom of opinion, expression and peaceful assembly are fundamental human rights. The right to strike is also a fundamental right.
The problem with Malaysia, in all the cases that I have witrnessed is the POLICE - it is them that over-react and start using violence. The Malaysian protester is very often a very patient and highly tolerant person.
In 1998, in front of Dataran Merdeka, the protesting crowd is sitting down and chanting, and in goes a few plain clothed policemen and pick up one protester from the crowd and start roughing him up, raining blows at his face even though he does not fight back and the kicking & battery carries on even he is walked away by the police to the trucks. Then in they go again and again and do the same.
I have also seen the police run after dispersing protestor and kick them and then arrest them.
Even on that Sunday(28/5/2006), let it be pointed out that there was no report of any police being assaulted and beaten (or pelted with stones or any molatov cocktail) - and the images and the final outcome is police brutality to the extent that 2 persons were seriously injured - we saw the picture of the man with the head injury, and the other with a broken arm.
Why do people protest? Why do they come out and join peaceful assembly? Why did the 100 or so lawyers march to the Federal Court Building during Zainur's case? Why did the lawyers march to Parliament in the 70s? Why did the lawyers protest at the PJ Balai in the Bala Subramaniam case? Why did the lawyers turn up in numbers in Parliament for the same case? Why did 1000s of persons turn up for all the protests in 1998-1999, and now in 2006?
WHY? Because they are unhappy and have something to say and to express - and they want to shout out (not in private coffee shops or any talk-shop session). They want to make a stand and be counted. They want to educate and create awareness to others. (Remember attending forums, ceramahs and talks do not mean that you support the topic of the forum or what the speakers are stating).
If you are not satisfied with what the government is doing - why don't you wait for the next elections and just vote against the BN - waiting 4 - 5 years when the problem is here and now is not the option. In any event, it is not that they want to vote opposition or BN - all they want is to let the government of the day and the people of Malaysia know about their grieviances. And the "media-blackout" was really not a good idea, and most likely the government had a hand to play in that directly or indirectly. After all the government wants to cover up the fuel-hike issue ...and now the increase in electricity tariffs... BUT that "media black-out" will only frustrate people even more and there will be more peaceful protests.... for these people who came out there want all Malaysians to also know their views.
"Illegal" - Why should we apply to the police for a permit to organise a protest? And if you had tried, you will find that it is near impossible to get a permit for a protest, or even a talk/forum. I remember one of our political parties once many years ago wanted to have a dinner-talk event, and they applied for a permit - and they got it and it came with a condition, i.e. no political talks or speeches...
According to the law as it stands now, any gathering of 3 or more constitute an illegal assembly, and as such a permit has to be applied for it. All talks and sessions in the Bar Council Auditorium and the LAC also, in law, need a permit. When you are having friends over for dinner, you need to apply for a permit. When you are having a prayer meeting, you need a permit. You want to have a Bar sub-committee meeting, you need a permit. That is the law as it stands now -- and I say that it is a BAD law and as such it must be ignored..
If the police does not charge protestors - traffic will flow and businesses will go on as usual - it is usually the presence of the police that causes all the tensions and the fears.... If the police behave as police should behave and allow these protests to go on -- it will go on peacefully and after some time the protestors will disperse and go home satisfied.
When it comes to protest police reaction also defers - for there were no water cannons or acts to disperse some of the fuel hike protest or the BADAI protest in Penang, and then there is unreasonable use of force in the last 2 fuel-hikes demonstration - WHY? WHY? May there was a directive from someone high up? Maybe it was just the individual officer in charge for the day?
I have seen how police react to protests and demonstrations in Hong Kong, South Korea, Nepal and even Sri Lanka - and I must say that there the police allow the protest to go on and all ends peacefully. It is only in Malaysia that our police react so badly - and use such excessive force in the dispersal of peoples' protest. Hopefully it is not because they have to justify the million dollar government expenditure in purchasing those water cannon trucks (if not mistaken, it was RM2 milo each)
Just some thoughts...
File Attachment:File name: 18.jpgFile size:3876 bytes 
|
|
|
| | The administrator has disabled public write access. |
Nizam Bashir
User
Junior Forumer
| Posts: 53 | |
|
Re:MADPET: Police attacks on peaceful protesters must end - 2006/06/01 13:25
1) Assembly without permits : Generally
So long as it is a peaceful assembly to express one's views, contrarian though it may be, it is a fundamental right safeguarded by Article10(1)(b) of the Federal Constitution.
However, I believe some of the more articulate co-forummers have already highlighted the resulting oddities if such a law is applied unchecked and it would be interesting to know whether there are exceptions in the legislation mandating a permit being applied for an assembly being more than 3 in number.
2) Whether assemblies should be even be something we indulge in if no permits were obtained.
Even so, assuming that there are no exceptions to its applicability, then to my mind so long as it is a peaceful assembly to express one's views, contrarian though it may be, it is a fundamental right safeguarded by Article10(1)(b) of the Federal Constitution as long as it doesn't impact upon national security. [see Article 10(2)(b)]
In short, although such an assembly (with the caveat of it not being contrary to national security) has resulted in a breach of the law, that very same law is arguably unjust and unconstitutional in the first place. So does one blindly follow such a law?
The answer may lie in the mouths of individuals far more illustrious than I and who once said -
"An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law."
and
"An unjust law is itself a species of violence. Arrests for its breach more so."
3) Assembly protesting fuel hikes being illegal and resulting altercation
If it was peaceful, then I personally doubt the requirement for a permit should apply to it. See the preceding paragraph and in that sense, it may not be illegal.
As for the altercation possessing an agenda ie to put the Police in a bad light, that respectfully may be speculative. Similarly, the poser that the Police have not reported any broken arms permits a conclusion that there was no reaction from the crowd, may also be speculative. Generally speaking, I think the truth lies somewhere in between.
4) Women and children
As I recollect it from my (mis)adventures browsing the reports from the alternative media/press, this was the fifth protests. (But please feel free to correct me on this if this is wrong.)
The previous protests have not had any untoward incidents and I suppose everyone assumed it was going to conclude peacefully as well. I just thought the context of people bringing the women and children to that protest ought to be viewed with that background in mind.
Best sig ever - Religious war at its most basic level is a disagreement over who has the best imaginary friend.  |
|
|
| | The administrator has disabled public write access. |
Stephen Tan Ban Cheng
User
Gold Forumer
| Posts: 585 | |
|
Re:MADPET: Police attacks on peaceful protesters must end - 2006/06/01 18:32
My dear Lawrence Teh
You speculated that a demonstration of 500 today may escalate to 5,000 tomorrow or next week. OF course, this is just a discussion but do think about the logistics of organising a 5,000-strong rally. It is easier said than done.
If the organisers of such a demonstration can get 5,000 people and can maintain peace throughout the rally, then I salute them - even with the police in attendance and without the police charging in on them.
THAT will be a welcome opportunity for our political leaders to LISTEN and then reply, maybe in a day or two, to their grievances. Political leaders, by their response, will show the quality of leadership that we in Malaysia enjoy.
Please, let us not think that the quality of our political leadership is unequal to the challenge that such mammoth demonstrations, if they arise, will pose.
Unfortunately, in the Malaysian context, demonstrations such as these ought to be held and a lot of time and money wasted because the mass media operates like a symphony orchestra with a conductor hidden from the general view.
The value of a free and independent media cannot, in this light, be overestimated since this will mean that the voices of the deprived and dispossessed can be heard and action taken to rectify their problem.
|
|
|
| | The administrator has disabled public write access. |
Malik Reza Bin Zahanor
Visitor
|
Re:MADPET: Police attacks on peaceful protesters must end - 2006/06/02 09:35
I have often heard the phrase that a picture speaks a thousand words.
The picture I saw of a police officer about to hit an unarmed person on the head with the butt of his rifle is not something that i could or would imagine happening in this country, much less in Kuala Lumpur.
We have heard the issue raised that the assembly outside KLCC was illegal because there was no permit.
What about the protest that was organised by members of our profession in defence of one of our own outside the Petaling Jaya Police Station recently. Correct me if wrong but i believe that they who had bravely protested outside the police station did not have a permit to do so either.
Would the police have been justified in using force against them then?
There it was clearly a challenge by members of the profession against the exercise/misuse of powers of the police outside the police station.
I am in no position to state whether members of the assembly/gathering outside the KLCC were antagonistic towards the police. However i do know that as enforcers of the law, the police are duty bound to exercise restraint in the carrying out their duties so as not to harm those they are supposed to protect.
Clearly, it would appear that rules of engagement, if there is one, was not adhered to. Reasonable force does not mean you are entitled to hit someone who is unarmed on the head with your rifle.
There a many things causing discontent amongst the rakyat these days, more so with various price increases on power and fuel. Don't they at least deserve to have their voices heard without the fear of being attacked?
Malaysians are by and large a peaceful people, we do not condone the use violence against anyone, even under the most trying of circumstances. Why allow it now?
|
|
|
| | The administrator has disabled public write access. |
Nik Elin Zurina Bt Nik Abdul Rashid
User
Senior Forumer
| Posts: 216 | |
|
Police attacks on peaceful protesters must end - 2006/06/02 11:15
Of course, most of us dont condone violence on anyone, but if it was done to protect the other citizens peace?
I hate violence. And when you actually watch the video, you can see that the police kept saying, BALIK BALIK BALIK.... asking everyone to disperse... but then a few were like trying to antagonise the police, who were there to ensure law and order. Yes, I watched one man trying to protect a woman but was being kicked insteed but what actually happened I dont know. Perhaps the police were over exerting their powers... I wont discount that possibility. But why demon strait that way? It was political anyway.
I remember a few years ago, in Kota Bharu, when I had just arrived at a dinner function, at the outside of the hotel about 300 protestors came from a nearby mosque to protest against a female singer performing in that dinner. The crowd was unruly and shouting ALLAHUAKHBAR ALLAHUAKHBAR... I am sure GOD never asked them to do that. But anyway, the police were there and I went up close to snap pictures of these fanatics with my handphone.The police initiially just kept still.... making sure no untoward incidents happened, protecting the guests or the protestors, I dont know . But I am sure that the protestors believed it their right to protest.
Anyway, because nothing happened, the protestors couldnt just wait for the police to sit pretty, so they barged to the front where I was close by and then so quickly (in a flash) I saw a few men being beaten up by the plainclothes policemen. I shouted to the police to stop beating up this guy, but this man was more furious and resisted. He kicked up a fight, and then I could see that he was being restrained by a few men. He was the "Kepala halian" or the aggressor. Had the police allowed these guys, then they would have probably tried to stop the dinner, much like what BADAI did to the forum in Penang.
So where is everyones stand?
Stephen, you objected to BADAI now can u make a stand, the illegal demonstrators or the peaceloving citizens like me and you?
MY KAR MA RAN OVER YOUR DOG MA |
|
|
| | The administrator has disabled public write access. |
|
Jurisk Dec 08
