Nik Elin Zurina Bt Nik Abdul Rashid
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Senior Forumer
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Re:Police attacks on peaceful protesters must end - 2006/06/02 11:32
Meaning of DEMONSTRATION= DEMONS TRAIT.
MY KAR MA RAN OVER YOUR DOG MA |
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Selva Kumaran Kamalanathan
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Re:MADPET: Police attacks on peaceful protesters must end - 2006/06/02 12:05
I find it strange that even members of our profession could justify the police actions on that Sunday. How can you justify half a dozen police officers armed and in protective clothing standing over a man in t-shirt and slacks and raining kicks and blows? Err.. arent we from the profession that is supposed to give effect to the expression 'innocent until proven guilty'. Arent we as lawyers able to see that even if the "trouble makers" are guilty of laws promulgated by the Parliament, that the FRU is not the party entitled to "punish" the offender? Isnt that what our Penal process is there for? The last remand prisoner I knew received a black eye resulted in a Royal Commission and the conviction of the former Inspector General of Police and yet there are members of our profession who do not see that what is wrong is the police action in itself? You do no have to agree or disagree with the protest itself. But surely it can be seen that the police action was wrongful? If we as lawyers cannot see this....
I cannot understand it....
But maybe this is because even most of our members have not seen the true side of the state we live in. And its hypocrisy. Not so long ago over 100 concerned citizens were arrested for sitting inside a conference room whilst a mob that openly affiliated itself with the ruling government ran riot outside. Why? Because that was the only way the police could deem the closed door function illegal (although the people inside were not rioters). Who were the mob outside? Well, like i said, they openly associated themselves with the ruling government's youth wings.
No, I'm not talking about the recent event in Penang. You see, what happened in Penang is just old tricks being used again.
Going back to the incident I'm referring to. Four of the mobs leaders were charged and proudly pleaded guilty and were given fines of less than RM2,000 to enable them to stand for elections (having done a good job...)
But its ironic init? One of those charged with rioting is now a leader of the opposition because the forces of this state we live in suddenly turned its wrath on his own leader.
What was the conference about? The liberation of East Timor! Now instead of stamping out conferences on East Timor our Deputy Prime Minister speaks of how proud he is that our troops can go and serve there as peacekeepers to maintain the freedom of Timor Leste... Ironic..
So whilst I realize most Malaysians (including member of the Bar!) are peace loving and dont like 'trouble makers' I ask you not to insult the victims of police action by suggesting that they brought it upon themselves.
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Lawrence Teh
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Re:MADPET: Police attacks on peaceful protesters must end - 2006/06/02 12:44
Each day, in order to obtain information globally, I go into the most valuable tool of my office administration – the internet.
Having used the same over some years, I could not understand why viruses must come into the system. I still don’t. They come into my system via spy-wares. They scan my files by way of their worms and corrupted mental state of mind – with only one thing on their mind – to make me pay. A pop up comes in blinking saying, that, ‘your registry is corrupted. Free download for registry cleaner. Just a one time US 39.95 payment and the registry cleaner will guarantee that your system does not collapse and that your files are not corrupted’.
What choice do I have, as I prepare towards my Q & A of the witness statement for trial in 4 days’ time. So I paid via credit card. RM 135.00 reflected on my statement. Still the screen went blank within 7 days after the payment for the said registry cleaner.
Demonstrators are comparable to viruses. They ride on Pegasus’ back and declare that they are making known the system’s faults. The 28th May 2006 demonstrators wouldn’t choose to sit under the coconut trees around Pantai Cinta Bulan in Kelantan or go on hunger strike and sit under the rambutan tree at Tanjung Rambutan. No, they choose the choicest of places. They choose places of economic interest where the government of the day is trying to impress foreign tourist to bring in their Dinars, Dollars, and Pounds. The elected government of the day has a system to run.
Jeremy Bentham, the Jurist, did say that happiness is measured by the greatest number of people who would be happy given any imposition within the system by the government of the day. So long as the happy group outnumbers the unhappy, the agenda has been satisfactorily executed. That is democracy.
In regards the suppression of the press in this matter, it is untrue that nothing had been reported. Yesterday’s NST carried the IGP’s defence in regards the actions of the police to disperse the crowd. Next to that article was the Bar Council’s support the IPCMC column.
How would I now counter the virus attacks in my computer? I can now be online for all I care. I have the anti-virus software. I juzt reboot. Each day hence, I work within my system free of yesterday’s probable viruses that have entered my system. That way I have time to do productive work from the morn. No need to worry about virus anymore. I need to be concerned about my clients’ interest and the files that I handle, so that at the end of the day I have the money to meet the BC’s 30th June 2006 deadline, and onwards toward paying for the PII’s insurance for my 2007 sijil annual by September.
The government too, has initiated the 9th Malaysia plan. It cannot allow demonstrators to disrupt the 5 year plan. The people are represented by parliamentarians at the Dewan Rakyat, and the opposition has been free to speak against the deficiencies of certain issues. Even the government back bencher sides the opposition in the Bin Yusof case. In Malaysia those who are rightly elected get to rule the country. In Myanmar the Junta takes over and places the winner behind closed doors.
The demonstrators have not exhausted their avenues to raise their grievances if they had not petitioned their grouses to their Dewan Rakyat representatives. It is public news that oil price has escalated, and thus existing government revenue could not sustain the approved budget that would otherwise slow down the projected wawasan 2020. The subsidy of the government in respect of the petrol and diesel prices are displayed at Petronas stations for all to view. TNB has been open about their problems.
Thus, it is untrue that demonstrators like viruses are not prepared when they chose to sit and chant about with placards. Viruses are unseen, and so are worms. Demonstrators are unpleasant sights and more destructive than constructive and must never ever be allowed to become a culture within a democratic peace loving nation like Malaysia.
In so far as the incident as alleged by Mr Selva Kumaran Kamalanathan, it is yet to be determined whether or not the police have charged those involved in the disruption of the forum. What needs to be done shall have to be done in accordance to having the best interest of the citizens and the decision then was made by the police - to instead ask the forum to be halted. It is understood that the proponents of the forum is proceeding to re-convene the matter. So, this time, enforcers would be more prepared to deal with a similar incident.
It is my personal experience that police are nice people. Approach nicely and you shall be treated nicely. Show that you are bigger than them because you are a lawyer and DEMAND that they allow you access for something that they are in control of, that is when you are deemed to having wrongly approached a nice organization with anti-riot power to quell the likes of demonstrators and loud lawyers.
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Stephen Tan Ban Cheng
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Re:Police attacks on peaceful protesters must end - 2006/06/02 15:27
My dear Nik Elin
I never objected to BADAI. I will uphold the right of any body or society, including BADAI, to hold a demonstration. It is an INALIENABLE right.
But that right evaporates when two or three of the demonstrators came into the venue of the forum in Penang and began obstructing the proceedings even from the start by imposing conditions that were never theirs to impose and asking questions to try and stop the session.
Nik, we are all lawyers. So I shall try and illustrate what I mean. A postman is entitled as of right to go into anybody's house to post letters since that is his job. However, if that postman steals something within the compound of that house, then his right of entry is negatived. Instead, he or she has committed a trespass ab initio. I hope the illustration clarifies things.
The Penang forum organisers have a perfect right to proceed. But on police advice, they called it off after half-an-hour into the four-hour session.
Whether or not BADAI is a registered organisation is an entirely separate issue.
I shall now turn to that demonstration last Sunday at KLCC. From the reports made, it was peaceful. It could have gone on without any breach of the peace. THAT would have been the CHALLENGE to the organisers.
But no, the police called for dispersion and then moved in. Blood was spilt.
The series of demonstrations were a NON-EVENT insofar as most of the Malaysian mass media was concerned. It became an event ONLY AFTER the authorities tried to justify the intervention.
I agree totally with Lawrence Teh that when dealing with the Police or even anybody, the APPROACH is important. The APPROACH sets the TONE of the ongoing relationship.
I can vouch for that since so far I have had no problems whatsoever in dealing with several members of the national law enforcement agency.
But that does not detract from the fact that corruption is endemic from top to toe in the police force. And it does not detract from the need to set up a body to regulate police conduct. Call it whatever you will, such a body is required yesterday. The Police Commission is no longer in existence.
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Nizam Bashir
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Re:MADPET: Police attacks on peaceful protesters must end - 2006/06/02 15:43
1. Addendum to Assembly Without Permits
Section 27 of the Police Act states that permits are generally only required when the assemblies are conducted in public places. (Exceptions do exist as provided by s 27A eg when it is against national security etc) So, generally speaking, it seems anyone hosting a LAN party/dinner party would not require a permit.
2. Confining demonstrations/protests to Pantai Cinta Bulan etc.
Digressing a little, it's a shame that Pantai Cinta Bulan has been renamed. Admittedly somewhat suggestive but the previous moniker had so much more character to it.
Coming back to the topic at hand, its heartening to note that there seems to be a concession that there is a right to demonstrate/protest, albeit only to non-tourist locales. Personally, I think the relevant Constitutional provision, though said to be residuary in nature, is not as restrictive as is suggested.
3. Utiliarian approach to be adopted in relation to interpreting fundamental liberties provisions in the Constitution
Although the other posts did not truly cast the issue as such, but permit me to re-cast the issue in this manner and pose the question:
"Whether the fundamental liberties provisions in the Constitution ought to be interpreted according to a utilitarian or unitarian approach."
NOTE : Unitarian approach being the absolute extreme in interpreting the aforesaid provisions.
4. Whether protesters actions brought the complained acts of the police against themselves.
At the outset, I think it may be sensible to bear in mind that the mere fact the police were armored and the members of the public were not, does not mean the police ought not do anything physical. (I am making a distinction between physical and "brutality")
Otherwise, changing out of the armored equipment might just take too much time to react in whatever way.
As for the protesters actions provoking an equipollent response from the Police, your guess is as good as mine but I am open to URLs being emailed/posted here for further consideration.
That said, irrespective of the legalities of the injuries/actions et al. and perhaps echoing the sentiments of the Malaysian public, I do sympathise with anyone (members of the public or police personnel) injured during the course of the said demonstration.
Best sig ever - Religious war at its most basic level is a disagreement over who has the best imaginary friend.  |
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Stephen Tan Ban Cheng
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Re:MADPET: Police attacks on peaceful protesters must end - 2006/06/02 18:44
Nizam
On a more laconic note, let me say this about Pantai Cinta Bulan. It used to bwe known as Pantai Cinta Berahi, or the Beach of Passionate Love.
At least that was the what it was known as when I was in Form 2. I was then a mere lad of 12. I had a great teacher, Jimmy Boyle, a musician who later composed Putera Puteri, the first and only Malaysian song that was to hit the European charts.
It was the late Jimmy Boyle who extolled about the beauty and lovely stretch of beach in the East Coast of Malaya called Pantai Cinta Berahi. And he encouraged all of us, when we were older, to go there.
I did go there, but I was then 28. It was one of my honeymoon destinations.
This was 1978. I found neither the lovelyand beautiful stretch of beach. Erosion has done away with that.
The Beach of Passionate Love, from 1962 till 1978 were no longer the same. In 1962, it could have lived up to its name as the Beach of Passionate Love. In 1978, there was no beach, no passion and no love!
Perhaps, our tourism authorities would care to look after our national spots for the sake of the tourists and posterity.
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Malik Reza Bin Zahanor
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Re:Police attacks on peaceful protesters must end - 2006/06/02 21:43
Dear Nik,
I would liken those who attended the assembly outside the KLCC to members of the forum in Penang. I would then liken the conduct of the police in this instance to that of the mob that 'invaded' the forum.
There is a clear line to be drawn here, either we sit by idly and ignore the fact that one day it may us ourselves standing outside the KLCC and let this incident pass, as such incidents in this country usually do OR we can take the necessary steps to ensure that law enforcement officers follow strict rules of engagement when dealing with situations such as this so that Malaysians do not have the fear that they should keep silent and do nothing.
Our country is not a police state.
Whether it was politically motivated or not is not the issue. There may be other other underlying factors yet to be reported. For the moment the fact is there was assembly of people voicing their views/grievances against the recent hikes in power tariffs and fuel prices.
A lot of people are unhappy about it, the difference here is that the people who bothered to assemble on that Sunday wanted their voices heard.
I am not advocating that people assemble in large numbers in any public place for any simple reason. The recent increase in the cost for power and fuel do affect people. These people simply wanted to be heard.
Please remember that the people at the assembly are our own countrymen, they were not armed, they were with their families and all they wanted was to be heard.
I guarantee you that the rest of the country would forget this incident in another week or two, if they haven't already. However, those who bore witness to the violence inflicted upon themselves and those they love by the very organisation instituted to protect them will not forget and neither should we lest we ourselves fall under the butt of a rifle one day and wonder how such a thing could happen.
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